In Character Convention Lecture: "The Ethics of Telepathy in Counseling"  
Stardate 10406.27 1500 Eastern Terran
Lecturer: Captain Savar, Dr.; CO USS Luna

======================================================

Cmdr_Luchena says:
::looks around for coffee and donuts::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::finds a seat::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::As a few people enter, he looks up from his notes.  Not surprising, really, his lectures have been small::  Welcome, welcome.
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::looks to the others in the room acknowledges them with a smile and takes a glass of water then a seat::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::nods at the presenter::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::prepares a PADD to take notes::
Host Captain_Savar says:
My name is Captain Savar, and I am the Commanding Officer of the USS Luna.  Formerly, I was her Counselor, and the Counselor for Arcadia Station.  I am a doctor in both psychology and psychiatry...
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::nods at the newcomer whose arrived just in time::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Takes a seat in the back ::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Folds his hands behind his back and walks around slightly::  Please, come down to the front... this is not a lecture, so much as a discussion.
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::gets up and moves to a seat in the front::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::smiles a fellow ex CNS then nods with a smile and recognition of Anari:: Self:  the one who had the strawberries
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Gets up and moves to a seat in the middle ::
Ens_Turok says:
::taking a seat in the front row::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Smiles at Janan and waves ::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::acknowledges Knight and Turok with a friendly smile::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::turns her attention back to Savar::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Looks as a few people come in late... hopefully they can just jump in::  The topic of our discussion will be the ethical use of telepathy in counseling sessions.  Why don't we start by people telling what their impressions and opinions are?
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Sees her CO and motions him to join her ::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Raises her hand ::
Host Captain_Savar says:
Lieutenant Commander?
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
Because you don't want to tell them how they are feeling, you want to get them to tell you.
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::nods::  You want them to learn to identify their own feelings.
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Nods::  That is one of the strong feelings towards the use of telepathy.
CO_Kyrron says:
::Unobstrusively slips into a seat::
Host Captain_Savar says:
I think that those of us who have been or are counselors can agree, though, that one of the main issues regarding counseling is that patients must be willing to face their thoughts and feelings.  Even if you can access them, does it cause any good if the patients is still unwilling or unable to deal with that?
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::thinks about those times he's had to counselor crew who were ordered for it::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Looks around at the others, then holds up her hand ::
Host Captain_Savar says:
As Counselors, we are... ::Stops midsentence::  Yes?
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::awaits the question::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
The point, I feel, is that you want the person to acknowledge how they feel.  Only then can the healing process begin...for example in a death
Ens_Turok says:
Savar: No sir, I'm an MO.
Host Captain_Savar says:
Correct.  In that instance, until you can get past the denial stage, healing cannot begin.
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::goes still as he struggles with his own feelings of loss::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Senses someone among them who is struggling with feelings of loss ::
CO_Kyrron says:
::quietly looking over the participants::
Host Captain_Savar says:
As Counselors, we share something with medical officers - do not harm.  Which does not always translate to doing good, unfortunately.  Patients always have the right to refuse treatment.  They may not be suitable for duty, but they can always refuse.
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Looks at the others wondering who that is ::
Host Captain_Savar says:
Even if we desire to help others, if they do not wish the help, it is meaningless.
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::recalls his struggles with Lt. Toms::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Looks over to her CO ::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::nods in agreement::
Host Captain_Savar says:
As Counselors, we are trained to use every tool available to us in our diagnosis and treatment of patients, correct?
Capt_TKnight says:
::looks back and smiles a sad little smile::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Mutters ::   Yes...
Cmdr_Luchena says:
No
Ens_Turok says:
Savar: I believe so sir.
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Raises an eyebrow::  Even amongst us, we have different responses.  ::Looks at Luchina::  Commander, would you mind expanding on your response?
Cmdr_Luchena says:
I once worked with a man who had been terribly violated.  To use telepathy was another violation.
Cmdr_Luchena says:
In desperate circumstances I used it anyway.
Cmdr_Luchena says:
It was not helpful to him in the long run.
CO_Kyrron says:
::watches Luchena, her eyes narrowed::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Nods::  You violated the "do no harm" mantra.
Cmdr_Luchena says:
Sometimes its impossible to predict what will help and what will harm.  ::looks into his lap::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Nods and raises her hand ::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Turns to Anari::  I was about to call on you.  Would you mind expanding on your answer?
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::remembers how close she came to those very same actions for extremely different reasons, is interested by the views of the others::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
I guess in this situation, if one is not empathic, then you are trying to use the best tools given to you.  Telepathy is a tool, but not individuals are responsive to it
Host Captain_Savar says:
So you believe one should use every tool available to them?
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Remembers when she first met Vince and how he was abhord to know she was an empath as well as telepathic ::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Nods ::   I do
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
With discretion
Cadet_Tox says:
:: looks about abit the moves to a seat in the room::
Host Captain_Savar says:
Do you use phasers in your sessions?
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Senses Tox joining the group and turns around and smiles to him, giving him a small wave ::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::gives a small smile at this remark and very clearly stated point::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::looks back up and smiles::
Cadet_Tox says:
:: nods at the wave and smiles a silent hello as he settles into his seat:::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
:;turns to Tox with a smile then looks back towards Savar::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::raises her hand::
Cadet_Tox says:
:: begins to review the last seminars notes then clears away the pad for fresh notes::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Raises her hand ::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::sits quietly::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Nods for Anani to continue::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
I don't understand the question, sir.  Why would someone want to use phasers in a couselling session?
Cadet_Tox says:
::raises his hand::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::softly::  Every tool...
Host Captain_Savar says:
A phaser is a tool.  Most tactical officers would vouch that it is one of the most important tools in their work.  With it, they can cause fear, which can typically lead to answers becoming more forthright.
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
But, as I understand the use of phasers...that is for tactical purposes
Capt_TKnight says:
::looks at Anari and grins, he can't help it::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
I think then, it would depend on the type of session you are holding and with what type of individual and what that person's requirements are
CO_Kyrron says:
::wonders about using telepathy for interrogation::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Thinks he's made his point and turns towards Janan::  Lieutenant Commander, you had something?
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
I am inclined to agree telepathy is not a useful tool all the time, though as Anari states some discretion is very useful, perhaps defining empathy which in itself can be very useful and telepathy which is often deemed intrusive and in a lot of cases damaging...
Cadet_Tox says:
::lows his hand after discovering that the lecture hall is the Telepathy one::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
As for the phasers there is a very big difference between interrogation and counselling one is for informative only the other is for aiding people.
CO_Kyrron says:
Have any of you telepaths ever been ordered to use your abilities for interrogation?
Host Captain_Savar says:
I'm not so certain that point is valid.  If a tactical officer neutralizes a target, they are saving possible lives and destruction.  However, that is not the point...
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::turns around, recognizes the Zaldan, and turns away disgusted::
Cadet_Tox says:
::furrows his brow at the idea of such an order being given::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Shakes her head in the negative ::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::raises an eyebrow::
Capt_TKnight says:
::sees the problems Anari faces in an entriely new light::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
What would you do if you were?
CO_Kyrron says:
::glares at Luchena::
Cadet_Tox says:
::raises his hand::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::looks at Kyrron with some distaste though directed at herself not him:: Self; To close for comfort, though thankfully not necessary.
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Feels the conversation straying off topic::  Cadet?
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::stands and looks at Kyrron::  Never.  ::sits back down::
CO_Kyrron says:
::savors satisfaction over provoking him, but still wonders about the question::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Senses some animosity in the room and wonders about it ::
Cadet_Tox says:
Capt.Savar: sir, Will you be discussing any psychological aspects of dealing with a emapthic or telepathical patient?
Host Captain_Savar says:
Not in this lecture directly, however, we can speak later, if you wish.  ::Regards everyone::  Back to the topic of telepathic ethics...
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::nods and listens to Savar again::
Cadet_Tox says:
:: nods and reumes note taking::
CO_Kyrron says:
::holds her question for now::
Host Captain_Savar says:
Let me ask a hypothetical situation... would you want a telepath unknowingly reading your mind?
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Giggles lightly at that one remembering Commander Vince ::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::chuckles::  My Captain is a Ullian.  Sometimes he finds it necessary to read my mind
Cadet_Tox says:
::furrows his brow a bit then tilts his head to the left::
Host Captain_Savar says:
Necessary?
Cmdr_Luchena says:
For the safety of the crew, Captain.
Host Captain_Savar says:
Has your Captain ever done it against your will?
Cmdr_Luchena says:
If its for the safety of the crew, then it is my will, although I might not realize it at the time.
CO_Kyrron says:
::rethinks her opinion::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Looks around at the rest, and his eyes fall on Captain Knight::  Captain, what about you?  What would your opinion be if I was reading your mind right now?
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Giggles again as her CO is called upon ::
Capt_TKnight says:
Savar: I think I may be coming from a different perspective Captain.
Host Captain_Savar says:
Would you care to elaborate?
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::listens::
Cadet_Tox says:
::studys the group dynamics abit while poundering if he has one or two minds for the telepaths to read currently::
Capt_TKnight says:
Savar: My crew is loaded with very strong telepaths and I've learned, over time, that any strong emotions or thoughts they pick up on
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::nods as he speaks::
Capt_TKnight says:
Savar: I've come to value their opinions, many times they've managed to point out to me something I hadn't considered
Capt_TKnight says:
::smiles at Anari:: Savar: and when you OPS officer is both you get used to it...in a hurry
Host Captain_Savar says:
I must admit that this is a more... willing... crowd than my other lectures.  Typically, people are not willing to release their inner thoughts and feelings if they do not wish to.
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Smiles ::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
I imagine we all wish to, Captain.
Capt_TKnight says:
Savar: It took some getting used to Captain but now I rely upon it
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::thinks about his own place on the Pendragon::
Cadet_Tox says:
::Raises his hand::
Host Captain_Savar says:
Cadet?
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Pats her CO's are and whispers ::   Knight: Thank you, sir
Capt_TKnight says:
::whispers back:: Anari: It's the truth
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::smiles applying the point's made by both captains to her past and current missions::
Cadet_Tox says:
Capt:Savar:: does Starfleet have a set of regulations devoted to the primary usages of the Telepathic or Empathic memebers of the Federation or are these individuals on an honor system?
CO_Kyrron says:
::believes its the latter::
Cadet_Tox says:
::smiles faintly knowing he is out of his league here:: All: in reguards to their use of such senses?
Host Captain_Savar says:
Well, I think that our differing opinions here points out that there are no such regulations.  Any such regulations would be... difficult, at best, to regulate and enforce, would they not?
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Looks at the young cadet and smiles ::
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::nods thoughtfully knowing how hard it is to restrict such a regulation::
CO_Kyrron says:
How could such regulations ever be inforced?
Cadet_Tox says:
::nods:: Yes, sir.
CO_Kyrron says:
::has an image of the Psychic Police banging down someone's door and chuckles::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::nods::  How indeed.  No, I think that an honor system is in place - hence, the reason for this lecture.  Ethical principles guide our actions.
Cadet_Tox says:
::makes a few notes and reviews the lecture notes .
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Laughs as she senses someone's image of the psychic police banging down someone's door ::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::smiles picking it up as well::
Host Captain_Savar says:
To most of you, the thought of someone picking apart your mind is common place... but to someone who is in a fragile emotional state, their inner thoughts and emotions are their inner sanctuary.  It would not be wise to invade such a sanctuary without either reason or consent.
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::nods in agreement.  Having had the experience, knows it is true::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Nods remembering offering to help a fellow crew mate with a bad experience but only after she had asked for the help ::
Host Captain_Savar says:
What, then, is reasonable cause?  ::Looks around for opinions::
Cadet_Tox says:
:: arches a brow thinking about the flood of memories he has recently shared with the newly implanted veriform::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
Reasonable cause to enter someone's mind?
CO_Kyrron says:
If the mission demands it
Host Captain_Savar says:
::To the Captain::  In what case would the 'mission' demand it?
CO_Kyrron says:
If one person had a piece of information that could save thousands, millions even.
Cadet_Tox says:
All: For psychological evaluation?
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
If I were a terrorist, then for interrogation purposes
Host Captain_Savar says:
Somehow, I don't think that falls under the counselor's duties.
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Giggles ::
CO_Kyrron says:
It might, Captain, under certain circumstances.
Host Captain_Savar says:
Strict guidelines may not exist... may not be able to be specified.  As our lecture draws to a close, this is our topic of further thought.  ::Looks around at faces, looking for final questions or comments::
CO_Kyrron says:
::would not hesitate to order a telepath to invade someone's mind::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::shudders::
Capt_TKnight says:
::If it meant the lives of his crew he'd order it and worry about the consequences later::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Looks at her CO sensing his feelings ::  Knight: You would?
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::winces::
Capt_TKnight says:
Anari: If it meant thousands of lives, yes
Capt_TKnight says:
Anari: or yours
Ens_Turok says:
::Quietly leaves the room::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Nodding ::  Knight: And what if reading that individual's mind meant for the telepath to die, sir?
Cadet_Tox says:
::makes afew notes on his padd then raises his hand:: Capt. Savar: Captian Savar, a moment of your time?
CO_Kyrron says:
::looks at Knight with interest wondering how he'll respond::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Steps down from the lecturing stage::  Yes, Cadet?
Capt_TKnight says:
Anari: E'Laina, I've had to do send people before to do things that meant their deaths and then mourned them, but I've done it.  It's part of my job
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::is grateful he has a CO who would never ask another telepath to do it, but would do it himself::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Smiles and nods ::  Knight: The burdens of command, sir?
CO_Kyrron says:
::nods::
Capt_TKnight says:
Anari: It's one of them Cmdr ::smiles::
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Stands and appaulds ::   Thank you for the lecture, Captain
Cadet_Tox says:
:: smiles:; Savar:  Recently i have been joined. I was wondering whether a telepath detects a dual mental signature from a trill or not ar most of my medical texts books don't seem to have any data.
CO_Kyrron says:
::stands::  It was a thought provoking lecture.  Thank you.
XO_LtCmdr_Janan says:
::stands up:: Savar: Thank you for your time, this seminar has been interesting. I must excuse myself. ::leaves the room in a hurry::
Capt_TKnight says:
Savar: Thank you Captain
CO_Kyrron says:
::makes her way to the exit::
CO_Kyrron says:
::leaves::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::applauds::
Cadet_Tox says:
::rests his left hand absent mindly on his abdomen:: Savar: Any thought on the subject?
Capt_TKnight says:
::smiles and nods to E'Laina and heads out the door::
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Ponders for a moment::  Cadet, I have never melded with a Trill, so I am not completely familiar with that.  But I imagine that in the symbiotic relationship, the thoughts become one, and thus, it would be like one being.
OPS-LtCmdr-Anari says:
:: Smiles at her CO and follows him out ::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::stands and stretches::
Cmdr_Luchena says:
Thank you for the session, Captain.
Cadet_Tox says:
::nods:: Savar: Thank you Sir. Contray to what they say I still sense him as a secondary personallity if you will forgive me for the exact term for such a joined mentality,
Host Captain_Savar says:
::Nods::  Thank you for your attendance.
Cmdr_Luchena says:
::heads for the exit::
Cadet_Tox says:
::nods then loks at his padd as it bleeps a reminder of the next seminar:: Savar: Pardon me, I must catch my next seminar. thank you for you insights.:: smiles then move to the exit
Host Captain_Savar says:
::nods and watches him leave::